In this conversation, Symon Oliver and Marcello Gortana discuss the intricacies of project management and vendor sourcing in digital transformation projects. They emphasize the importance of clear scoping, defining objectives, and involving stakeholders early in the process. The discussion also covers budgeting strategies and the significance of framing problems rather than solutions when initiating projects. The conversation concludes with a recap of key takeaways for marketers to ensure successful project execution.
Takeaways
Chapters
Symon Oliver (00:00)
Hey, how's it going? You there?
Marcello Gortana (00:03)
Yeah, can you hear me?
Symon Oliver (00:04)
Yeah, nice. Do you to angle your camera down just a touch? Yeah. Otherwise, I'll just be cutting only your face.
Marcello Gortana (00:13)
Let's go.
Symon Oliver (00:14)
Uhhhh, yeah, it's going good.
some quick, quick updates. Have you seen the Sora stuff? It's like all of these AI companies released video prompt to video platforms, like in the last three weeks, you've got Google meta vibes, which everyone hates on, which is hilarious. It's like,
Marcello Gortana (00:33)
Mm-hmm.
Symon Oliver (00:34)
and then Sora, which people are actually excited and weirded out about, but have you, you have to be invited to it, but have you heard of what it is?
Marcello Gortana (00:41)
No, but I've been seeing a lot of ⁓ the output and it's hilarious.
Symon Oliver (00:42)
So.
Okay. So basically if, if I got an invite, it would say, okay, record your face and your likeness and your voice and all of that. So that way it can insert you into different scenes. Right. And then I would say, okay, well, want Marcello to also be part of this. So I would send it over to you. You'd have to do the same, but then if we open up both of our like likenesses to each other.
Marcello Gortana (01:05)
Mm-hmm.
Symon Oliver (01:10)
we can actually insert one another into whatever we prompt with. So I could be like, I want to do a video of Marcello like snowboarding down the Italian like hillsides, right? And it would do that. Or arguing with like, ⁓ no, it seems like a terrible idea, but it's like they're...
Marcello Gortana (01:16)
That's crazy.
Mm-hmm.
This does not seem like a good idea.
Symon Oliver (01:34)
It's like a social network, which is very strange. They didn't release it as a tool for just generating content. It's like they released it as a tool for just basically generating content for each other, as meta vibes. Yeah. So big mistake, but yeah.
Marcello Gortana (01:44)
Crazy.
I've been seeing some of the
content that's coming out of it and that's really funny, the stuff that I've been seeing.
Symon Oliver (01:52)
Was that the one you sent me on Instagram? It must have been. The one with Michael Jackson? It must have been that.
Marcello Gortana (01:54)
I can't remember what I sent you, man, there's some fun. ⁓ yeah, they're really going hard with Michael Jackson. It's
so funny. The best is the series of him stealing chicken from KFC patrons. All right, well, let's jump into it. So we are going to focus on sourcing websites, applications.
Symon Oliver (02:07)
Alright, well we're here to talk about something.
Marcello Gortana (02:16)
web ecosystem work, digital transformation, like what, you know, from a client perspective, what and how do you go about sourcing the right vendor? What do you need? What do you need? And it's not necessarily about picking the right vendor, more so about like, how do you better scope work so that the, what you get as an input back from different vendors is
Symon Oliver (02:16)
Yeah, what are we?
Marcello Gortana (02:40)
as accurate as possible. Does that make sense?
Symon Oliver (02:41)
Yeah, I think it's about like how to
start your website project as a marketer or as a product company. Like how do you just start that project? What do you need to do beforehand? Cause it's not even like the choosing a vendor could be a whole different episode. think.
Marcello Gortana (02:56)
Yeah, I mean, I'm thinking primarily like, not again, yeah, not choosing a vendor, but when you have, when you go to RF, I mean, doesn't even have to be RFP or RFQs could just literally be like multiple estimates, like what information and what sort of like brief you need to put together in order to get the most accurate response back from companies like ourselves. Like what are the ideal.
pieces of criteria.
Symon Oliver (03:22)
Yeah. No, exactly. I mean, I've got a, I don't think we even have enough time to go through that list.
Marcello Gortana (03:26)
No, we could start. could just start it.
like most of the time companies come with a very like vague idea of what it is that they want. And a very vague idea of what they're expecting from companies like us. And then yeah, of course, what it costs. I mean, they don't need to know what it costs, but like
at least have a basic understanding of what is a realistic budget for this kind of work. If all three of those things are missing, it's sort of a waste of time for everyone, to be honest. working with an agency to scope something out, and you both might just not be the right fit for each other.
Symon Oliver (04:02)
Yeah. I think it's like a bit of a quick reality check too. Like most, I would say most of these types of projects, the digital transformation, the web projects, the product projects, they, they can fail before any of that work is even done if things are not scoped or prepped properly. So like this is, this is the critical part of any project and scoping, writing that brief, being explicit.
Marcello Gortana (04:21)
Hmm.
Symon Oliver (04:28)
It's not because of the design or the development. It's often due to like poorly scoped projects, poorly written brief. There's even like, there's a link I'll post in our show notes, but 70 % of digital transformation projects fail to meet their goals. Likely because of, because of this. Websites often overrun on time and budget due to unclear requirements, right?
Marcello Gortana (04:35)
Mm-hmm.
Symon Oliver (04:51)
So really big, it's a big spread too. can have timeline and costs exceed 25 % plus. That's why a lot of companies throw those contingency budgets in as well. It's also why we scope our projects a bit differently. Well, yeah, the strong, like a strong brief is the cheapest way to de-risk a project and to de-risk your investment. And I know it's always a hard sell, but I've always said like,
just bring us in to scope the project. Like that is a small fee costs anywhere, you know, could be like five to 15 K, but that immediately de risks the complexity of a project. if you're working with an RFP, that could be hundreds of thousands of dollars, five to $15,000 spend upfront with a firm like ours.
to help you write that RFP is money really well spent.
Marcello Gortana (05:44)
Yeah, I mean, I was thinking the same thing. We have two examples across the gamut of very, well, there's a scale of complexity. I shouldn't say two examples, but there's two outcomes in the scale of complexity. It's either your project is usually maybe potentially anything from an enterprise-sized website all the way to a
product or an application will have enough complexity that it's really difficult to scope to a level of detail. I guess it depends on the project really, but it is kind hard for clients to scope that on a level of detail that a brief would be useful for a company like ours, like us. In those instances, we've even kind of forced that consulting.
scoping service first because it's even difficult for us to scope something or spend enough time to properly scope it without actually getting paid to do the work. So, you know, in those instances where it's really complicated, like you have user flows that are complex, you're trying to, it's high, high value product. It's generating revenue, like something that's really critical to the business. It totally makes sense to work with an agency to actually
work with you to create the blueprint, which is kind of like a core part of our process. But sometimes you need to pull that out in order to accurately define what it is that you're designing and building. So there's one fork, is what's called the more complex side. And then there's the other fork in the road, which is like a marketing website or something that has a lot less variables. That clients could probably put together a pretty
Symon Oliver (07:17)
Yeah.
Marcello Gortana (07:19)
decent budget for it. mean, brief. I am kind of like surprised how rare it is to see any documentation going into quoting something like that. It's usually, you know, two to three discussions and you're kind of like pulling stuff out of someone's, you're just like pulling institutional knowledge out of someone through a conversation. sometimes it's like,
qualitative. This person doesn't like x or that department doesn't like y or whatever it is, and it's very rarely ever documented. If ever. I can remember the last time we've done a simple to mid-complexity level website where there's been great documentation for what the vision is.
Symon Oliver (08:01)
I've actually never seen that. So yeah.
Marcello Gortana (08:02)
Even even
like a feature list like nothing nothing is ever documented.
Symon Oliver (08:06)
No.
Well, I've seen feature lists, but the problem with feature lists is they don't have depth. Like listing a feature, like here's a really good example. Someone wants to include, I don't know, let's say like a member portal, right? Well, what's in a member portal? First off, you got to tell us like, what is a member even doing in that portal? Second of all, they'll usually list login, right?
Marcello Gortana (08:20)
Mm-hmm.
Symon Oliver (08:30)
ability to log into the member portal. Okay, well, you can log in in like countless different ways. There can be SSO, there can be two factor authentication. So simply naming a feature doesn't necessarily give you the depth and the complexity of that feature or the business logic that might even go into it. So a simple login, you know, it could be a few hours to implement.
Marcello Gortana (08:32)
Mm-hmm.
Symon Oliver (08:54)
It could also be 30 hours plus additional tooling, additional security. Who knows, right? And a lot of the times we don't get that detail. It's not written into the RFPs. Now I don't know. And that's again, why you should, that is basic.
Marcello Gortana (09:06)
And that's pretty basic too. That's something that should,
especially for an RFP where there is, the RFP is sort of brief. That's something that's pretty much always missed. I've never seen that level of detail. whole other thing because the other frustration with RFPs is that if it's a prop, if it's a strict RFP process,
In that example, we can't even pick up the phone and say, hey, I want to just understand this feature request in a little bit more detail. What kind of sign-in or log-in are you thinking here? That's literally impossible. And that's such a small, simple example of why, personally, I think RCPs are terrible and hard to estimate and hard to estimate accurately.
Symon Oliver (09:40)
Mm-hmm.
Marcello Gortana (09:51)
And then it's also competitive. everyone's, it's just like compounds the issues. But yeah, so
Symon Oliver (09:58)
I was just going to I got a short list of things to help people along in the, in the process as well. So.
Marcello Gortana (10:03)
Great. Yeah, that's perfect. Go for it.
Symon Oliver (10:05)
⁓ one thing is to start with problems, not solutions. I see this as a huge mistake all the time is RFPs or a request for like projects. It's always starting with the solution first rather than the problem. A good example is like, okay, the website, takes me weeks to upload content to my marketing website.
That's a problem. And that's a really good problem to frame that you will want a vendor to solve. Don't start with, well, we need a new CMS, right? Because that's starting with solutions first rather than framing the problem. Because you don't know exactly what the solution is. The solution could actually be just updating the CMS, upgrading it. Sure, maybe it's a full re-platform, but specify the problems.
Marcello Gortana (10:30)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Symon Oliver (10:53)
List all of those out as someone putting the project scope together as an initial step, because then you're coming from a position of listing the pains rather than the solutions saying we need a new CMS. That's a solution. Well, meanwhile, the pain is our marketing team can't update content without a developer, right? It gives me way more information than just. I need to update the CMS. Well, my head immediately goes to like.
Marcello Gortana (11:04)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Symon Oliver (11:19)
Well, why is it the developer problem? Is it a legacy problem? Is it compliance issues? So I think that's just a really good example. And, you know, a couple of the problems that we commonly hear are that thing, like I can't update content without a developer. Uh, the CMS is outdated and aging. It's going to be deprecated or we have to upgrade it, but it's going to cost us X amount to do that with our existing developer.
the user experience feels dated or compliant stuff. Like we talk about this all the time, the AODA ADA WCAG stuff. Maybe your website problems are that you're not compliant. So there's some risk there. Right.
Marcello Gortana (11:58)
Hmm.
Symon Oliver (11:59)
So I'm sure there's like...
Marcello Gortana (11:59)
So list of
number one, frame the problems. All of them.
Symon Oliver (12:02)
Yeah. Frame
the problems, all of them. Just do a workshop internally to frame the problems.
Marcello Gortana (12:07)
and what's number two?
Symon Oliver (12:08)
Yeah.
Number two is it's kind of on, it's on the heels of that one. It's I don't know, like four or five or something. Yeah. Defining objectives and outcomes. And we do this in our workshops, but we do them in our workshops because they are so poorly defined oftentimes in the RFPs. What is that measurable change that you want?
Marcello Gortana (12:12)
How many do you have, by the way?
Okay, perfect.
Symon Oliver (12:32)
Obviously conversions are a hard thing, but it's like, do you want to reduce the time it takes to get content out from three weeks to hours? Maybe you can't ascribe exact numbers to it, but that's another thing you just have to get really clear with is your outcomes. What are the actual objectives? And,
Marcello Gortana (12:32)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, it's
nice to have all of them listed. But I would also say that from an impact perspective, a priority is typically a priority. I feel like everyone falls into this trap of priorities, which is splitting up your focus in way too many ways. It comes to audiences, too. What is the priority audience? Not the priority audiences, plural.
Symon Oliver (13:10)
Totally.
Yeah. And what do we do differently with our audiences that is maybe a bit different from other processes?
Marcello Gortana (13:19)
that you're prompting me. Why don't you just talk about it?
Symon Oliver (13:21)
That's funny.
guess, yeah, I am the one that does the workshops, but yeah.
Marcello Gortana (13:29)
No, no, I know, but I just found
it funny that you were prompting me.
Symon Oliver (13:34)
That's too funny. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we, we have tiered audiences, right? Which is cool. Tiered audiences make a huge difference because it's, it's tiered based off of your primary audience is the one that if they didn't exist, your business wouldn't exist. Who are they define them? And then secondary audience is adjacent to that. You could do without them.
Marcello Gortana (13:34)
It's as if I'm just diving in.
Okay.
Mm-hmm.
Symon Oliver (13:58)
but they do come to your site, your product and whatnot, but your existence isn't necessarily for them. They're just adjacent. And then the tertiary audience is an audience that's maybe built up of internal teams and departments, but also potentially optics. We do a lot of not-for-profit work and sometimes those not-for-profits have a tertiary audience of the government where the government just needs to
Marcello Gortana (14:22)
Mm-hmm.
Symon Oliver (14:24)
find information on their programs, and they're not a key audience member. They just need info. So that's a really good way of spreading out the audience and prioritizing them to say, there is still just one audience that we should focus on, but we're acknowledging that there are other layers to this that we won't shy away from. But if you're asking us to implement a feature that's going to
Marcello Gortana (14:43)
Hmm.
Symon Oliver (14:49)
10X your budget and it's specifically for your tertiary audience, our answer would probably be like, don't do it. Yeah. Yeah. I'm also glad you brought up, just like not, not like over prioritizing multiple priorities. Cause you're right. It's a big mistake. And that's another thing we see in
Marcello Gortana (14:57)
What's next?
I think a lot of people
make that mistake. I mean, we make that mistake internally all the time when we talk about priorities. It's like, priority is a singular priority. Otherwise you just never get anything done.
Symon Oliver (15:12)
supposed to be one thing.
No, you don't. Like it could be critical. You can score stuff critical, high, medium, low, but still like you should only have one critical. And that goes with projects that we see companies, lump so many different projects into a single monolithic project. A good example oftentimes is we need to redo the website. Okay. Well, we also need to read.
integrate the CRM or we're buying a new CRM or we don't know what CRM to use and we want to add it. we also have this ERP that needs to be integrated and we want to integrate XYZ. It's like the list goes on and you end up taking a standard marketing website from standard brochure where up to this monolithic ecosystem where things are integrated and talking to one another. And that's great.
Marcello Gortana (16:00)
Hmm.
Symon Oliver (16:01)
but you're like boiling the ocean by trying to group that all under one single project.
Marcello Gortana (16:07)
Yeah, agreed.
Symon Oliver (16:08)
So yeah, that was number two. And then this is the funnest one, but probably the most controversial and the one we discuss about most often. Budgets. Setting a realistic budget early, if possible, but like...
Marcello Gortana (16:20)
Yeah, I mean,
I would say like a range is possible too. I mean, like, I just feel like it doesn't need to be like, maybe people feel like, especially I totally understand from some prospect perspective, when they're getting into a project, a digital project, and they literally have no idea. And this is part of the research is to understand the budget. You have your own internal budgets that you have as a marketing budget.
And I know that there's also some, like, they just, people just don't want to share because they feel like you're just going to close within the budget, whatever it is. Which that one doesn't really make sense to me because you just want an accurate estimate that's scoped well, priced appropriately, all that. So when comes to budget, I mean, like, it's helpful to even just start with
Symon Oliver (17:04)
Yeah.
Marcello Gortana (17:09)
what is the budget that you've been assigned? Like whether that's all going to web or not, what's the range? It just speaks up the process. Like the reality is like not everyone is a good fit for everyone from like an agency and prospect perspective. So figuring that out early is great. Saves everyone a lot of time. It also I think gets you to a faster point of education.
So like understanding where your project kind of lies in the market of web and digital transformation. And then at the very minimum, like a range is helpful too. I think that also people don't understand that like there is so many ways, there are so many ways of doing things when it comes to web and design and development, and all of them impact budgets significantly.
Symon Oliver (17:45)
Mm-hmm.
Marcello Gortana (17:58)
Sharing your budget doesn't mean you're going to get a worse product because someone told you it should cost more or something like that. It just means that it's a different way of executing it based on the budget. So when we're asking budget and budget ranges, we're just trying to understand what do we need to do in order to keep the same standard of quality within the myriad of ways that we could execute.
And if it's not a fit, because we can't, then it's not a fit. But playing the guesswork is just kind of really difficult to get to like a common ground.
Symon Oliver (18:26)
Yeah.
Mm I think the guesswork is part of like, it's an increase of risk and it wastes everybody's time as well. Like there's a, when I was thinking about stuff around this topic for this podcast, I was thinking, treat it kind of like a job posting, right? You're transparent about salaries, right? And what does a salary do? Right? Not everyone has no, no. Yeah.
Marcello Gortana (18:48)
Yeah. Well, not everyone is. I would say there's also the same level
of discrepancy or variability in job postings as there is in the vendor sourcing. But it is a good example.
Symon Oliver (19:00)
For sure. Yeah, pretty, pretty same.
But the best job posts are the ones that give a salary range because what it does is it helps people self-qualify. So you can self-qualify vendors just by putting a range. There's things that we just won't pitch on and there's things where, you know, the budgets might be incredibly healthy, but it's also a good sign of the complexity. So it opens up other questions, but being transparent with the budget is good for everyone because it.
decreases the risk, it saves everyone time and ambiguity. And I want to, I want to touch on that one myth that you mentioned about this whole like, like vendors will just, they'll hear the budget and then go to that budget. It's, it's a bit of a myth because for us, we have our project minimums, right? But if someone comes to us and they're below the minimums, we can still work with them to shape.
Marcello Gortana (19:33)
Mm-hmm.
Symon Oliver (19:53)
what that scope of work could look like. A good example was that not-for-profit that came to us a bit ago and they don't have the budget for our minimums. So I came back, I said, well, here's what we can do with that, right? It's not a matter of trying to fit a $40,000 budget into a $20,000 budget. It's a matter of saying, well, this is your budget. What can we do with it that will maximize the impact? So you adjust the scope.
Marcello Gortana (19:55)
Mm-hmm.
Symon Oliver (20:20)
You cut maybe low priority features and get things aligned. You still get the high quality service, but that conversation would have never happened if we didn't have a budget to begin with, because we knew going in that they didn't have the minimum qualifying budget. So we were able to get really strategic with the scope of work.
Marcello Gortana (20:25)
you
Maybe that's not accurate experience for her. I actually don't know what from the client side, what other experiences are out there with agencies. But maybe that's not an accurate or typical experience.
Symon Oliver (20:53)
wonder.
Marcello Gortana (20:53)
All right, next.
Symon Oliver (20:53)
Yeah.
All right. Next. We kind of touched on this a bit, but it was just about language around features. Something as vague as a login system or events calendar, or one of the most problematic ones is forms. You think they're really innocuous, but forms, they get everyone into trouble because if you're working on a product or even a website, I think the expectation is that
forms are going to be part of the CMS and that the client will be able to construct any form that they want and connect it into their data sources. That is never the case. You should always consider a third party tool. And if you are building a custom form builder, which you shouldn't, that like 10 X's the level of development. So you should really be asking yourself,
Marcello Gortana (21:20)
Mm-hmm.
Symon Oliver (21:41)
What value does having a custom form builder actually deliver me? And we've had this conversation with enterprise companies before, even on the event side, they wanted custom events for transactions and payments, but just having an event calendar, you have to ask yourself, well, what are all of the different things that I have to consider for the business logic? Someone can sign up.
someone can cancel, someone maybe has to pay, there's public events, private events. All of that logic, if you were to custom build it, is absurd and expensive and difficult to maintain and expensive to maintain.
Marcello Gortana (22:16)
Mm-hmm.
Symon Oliver (22:17)
So vague features tend to be one of the biggest traps with some of these sites. And understanding that there's often off the shelf tools that can help you, like Eventbrite would be a really solid event calendar tool. It's the build versus buy thing. And the more information you can give to a vendor that can look at it and say, well, build versus buy, I'm going to recommend
the buy option in this estimate, the more information and like the clearer the quote and the estimate it's going to be. So I would say like, maybe do some research around potential off the shelf integrations that you might be interested in exploring, or even if you're open to them at all.
Marcello Gortana (22:42)
Mm.
Symon Oliver (23:00)
⁓ and then I don't know if this is the last one. I said, said five or six. Yeah. Phases and timelines. This is another one for us kind of akin to the whole like boiling of the ocean comment, typical project phases. just understanding the reality of how long things actually take and what your level of involvement is going to be for the phases. So
from you as a marketer understand where your commitment might be. How committed are you during the discovery process? How committed are you during the design process? All of this stuff is going to require a level of effort from your team as well.
Marcello Gortana (23:34)
⁓ That's a good one. How would they, so are you asking them to define how much they're gonna be involved in each phase or are you asking them, because like how would they know how much commitment is required if it's someone that's like going through this process for the first time? Maybe it's more about like just understand, well,
Symon Oliver (23:51)
Yeah, that's true.
Mm-hmm.
Marcello Gortana (23:59)
I think in general, if someone's going into a website project and they're sourcing a vendor and they're going to start a six to eight month process and they haven't thought about their own work schedule and think that they're going to be able to do this pretty big, in some instances, big project without the...
changing their work schedule at all. Like that's a problem obviously. So starting to think about, you know, how is that going to affect your priorities over the next six to eight months? And I think like some of the best clients that we have asked that question, they asked the question really early on in the process. Like what does my or my team involvement look like in phase one, phase two, phase three? Who else do you need? you know, if you need IT,
they're only going to be available for the next three to four weeks. What does their schedule look like? Is anyone leaving the team? Things like that. Just doing some general organizational governance to managing a project like this, I think, would be great to not necessarily be in a brief or anything like that. But it ideally comes up in conversation at some point.
Symon Oliver (25:02)
yeah, no, I think like that's a good point. Just it doesn't necessarily need to be in the brief to some extent, but it's part of planning. Like know that this is a project that will require your involvement. It's not like tripling the work of your job. And I think that's one of the, areas that we're very conscious of. And that's, we know this isn't our clients only project. We know that they're running.
Marcello Gortana (25:10)
Yeah.
Symon Oliver (25:27)
their business, they're running their department or their day to day. So that's why we have a very strict process around discovery and we let them know upfront their level of involvement. But I think going into these projects, we've had those conversations early days where they're like, you know, how, how involved do we actually have to be? And even if it's minimal, it can still be a bit of a surprise. So it's.
It's something to just do a gut check of on your end and see if you are really prepared for the undertaking.
Yeah. ⁓ the next one is actually related to something you mentioned just about stakeholders, like involve these different stakeholders within your organization. These decisions are not isolated. Your marketing website actually connects with it. It connects with anyone on the content side, accessibility, leadership. There are so many owners for a website project that
Marcello Gortana (25:58)
⁓
Symon Oliver (26:23)
are oftentimes not brought in during the brief writing phase or during the project at all. Sometimes they're brought in too late. One of the things we're always mentioning is the IT side. They get brought to the table late all the time. They get brought late during the proposal phase, the pitch phase, the project phase and
Marcello Gortana (26:27)
Mm-hmm
Symon Oliver (26:46)
they're always surprised and they always have so much to add to the project that we have made it a point of asking upfront, like who else can we involve in this discussion specifically on the IT side?
So I would say the recommendation there is just get feedback and buy in from other decision makers or constituents within the company. So that way people are aligned because IT might have completely different goals than the marketing team. They might also have some great ideas that the marketing team can add because everyone's doing their own research.
Marcello Gortana (27:20)
Yeah, that's true.
Symon Oliver (27:21)
So, I mean, that's, that is pretty much it. I mean, do we want to do a recap?
Marcello Gortana (27:24)
⁓
Yeah, sure. Let's do a quick recap. Do a one sentence, list them all, and do a one sentence summary of each.
Symon Oliver (27:35)
my gosh.
All right, yeah, defining.
Marcello Gortana (27:41)
These are
Top seven tips for marketers to put together an accurate ⁓ brief for a website or digital transformation project. Top seven tips. Go.
Symon Oliver (27:53)
Okay. Well,
start with the problems, not the solutions, right? Define the objectives and the outcomes. Setting a realistic budget early, which could be a range, but put something down on paper. Get the scope as close as you can to correct. So avoid those magic words, like just vague statements, like events, calendar, really understand.
if you're open to the build versus buy side of things. ⁓ Understanding project phases and that there will be commitment from your team as well. So do a bit of a gut check on the amount of time your team might have for a project like this.
Marcello Gortana (28:20)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Symon Oliver (28:34)
And then manage decision makers and involve them early on in the process. And that's, that's all I've got. How many was that? Was that five?
Marcello Gortana (28:42)
I
Symon Oliver (28:44)
not seven. Yeah. Yeah. I don't
know.
Marcello Gortana (28:49)
All right. That's it. That's all we got today. Yeah. Sweet. All right.
Symon Oliver (28:49)
That's what we got.
Okay, well, we'll see you later then.
Marcello Gortana (28:55)
Yeah, we'll do the next one next week. OK, bye.
Symon Oliver (28:58)
Perfect.
See ya.