In this conversation, Symon Oliver and Marcello Gortana discuss various content management systems (CMS) and their implications for businesses. They explore the risks associated with third-party integrations, the evolution of CMS platforms, and the importance of evaluating options based on specific business needs. The discussion covers site builders, traditional CMS, headless CMS, and enterprise solutions, highlighting the pros and cons of each. They also touch on the role of open source in CMS choices and the emergence of digital experience platforms (DXP).
Takeaways
Chapters
Symon Oliver (00:00)
All right. So yeah, I'm Symon Oliver, design director, co-founder at Tennis.
Marcello Gortana (00:05)
My name is Marcello. am the executive director at Tennis. We are a B2B ⁓ web and product agency. All right, let's jump in. So we've been talking about CMSs. We're on episode three about just a very peripheral kind of review of CMS platforms ⁓ and categories. Last week, we covered the different types of categories, which I think is like really, and sort of touched a little bit on strengths.
Symon Oliver (00:15)
Nice.
What did we cover last week?
Marcello Gortana (00:37)
Really good piece of content for anyone that has some questions around CMS platforms, which ones to use, why, what are the differences. So you should check out the previous episode first before continuing with this one. If that's where you're at. If you understand, if you have a general basic understanding of all the categories and some of the strengths and weaknesses of CMS platforms, we're just diving in a little bit deeper today.
Symon Oliver (01:05)
Well, what do we, I think we're specifically looking at what you should look for and what to avoid in the CMS this week as part three, kind of building on our last week's episode. And this should wrap everything up. I think it's important that we do a recap, even just a light recap in this episode of the different types that we covered. So, you know, I'll start us off there. So we went through the, and fill in any gaps that I might.
Marcello Gortana (01:16)
Yeah. Yeah.
Symon Oliver (01:34)
have because we did have to add an extra flavor last week. So we've got traditional CMSs, which is your WordPress, your Drupal, your Joomla, which we thought was a ghost, but it is still out there. ⁓ And that's your classic traditional handles content front end together all in one system. Usually has a lot of plugins. And there's the headless CMS, which evolves like
about a decade ago, which is where you store your content in a structured backend and deliver it to your front end via an API. It's a bit more complicated, but it does have its use cases. Then we've got your enterprise CMSs like your Adobe Experience Manager, your Site Core, Sitefinity. Those are big complex ecosystems that have workflows, strict governance.
like serious power, but also serious licensing fees. Like I mentioned, Adobe Experience Manager is around 100K per year. So those are the enterprise tiers. Adobe Experience Manager inhabits the DXP realm as well, which we kind of got to in our last week's episode. Then there's the site builders, which are the Squarespace's and the Wix's and some would argue Webflow.
I would argue not Webflow because Webflow is a new category of the web experience platforms. So we'll get to that another day. But those site builders are things that give you the block level, visual design tools, lots of CMS, and hosting all baked into a managed platform. So you're usually paying for subscription fees rather than retainers or anything like that.
Then the other one that you introduced last week, which I hadn't heard of, which was the visual development CMSs, which is Framer would inhabit that category. It's kind of like a Figma style layout tool, but you can deploy your layouts as a website. Really powerful, something we're looking more into. And I'd definitely say that Framer's leading that category might really be the only one in that category.
Marcello Gortana (03:31)
Mm-hmm.
Symon Oliver (03:53)
unless Figma Sites gets its act together. But I haven't heard anything about that a long time. And then there's the DXPs, the digital experience platforms, like content stack that we briefly mentioned. And that's like personalization, content orchestration, analytics, multi-panel delivery, something that we're pretty thin on in terms of our understanding. So we probably won't cover it, but it is a category, at least a note.
And then lastly, the specialty CMS platforms like Shopify for e-commerce ⁓ and then IMAS for things like member management. What did you say it was? AMS? Something management system? Member management system?
Marcello Gortana (04:36)
AMS. Association.
⁓
Yes, Association is think specifically application management service. So we were way off.
Symon Oliver (04:44)
Yeah, so see if you
⁓ okay. I Googled it and I got altered mental status. So, ⁓
Marcello Gortana (04:58)
Yeah
IMS
is, ⁓ wait, IMS is an AMS, right?
Symon Oliver (05:06)
IMS is an AMS, yeah. ⁓
Yeah.
Marcello Gortana (05:12)
I mean, they do a lot. Yes. Part of what they do is membership management.
Symon Oliver (05:14)
Too many acronyms.
It is an association management system. And I'm getting that from IMES's website. So it is not the altered mental status.
Marcello Gortana (05:23)
Yes, system.
OK, cool, perfect. I forgetting. Neither
is it the application management service. Actually, I don't know why I thought that was accurate, because we literally just talked about it. Membership services, very obvious, right?
Symon Oliver (05:37)
now.
Well, you know, we have a lot of acronyms and jargon to deal with in our industry, so no one's going to fault us for that. ⁓ So yeah, that's, I don't think I missed any.
Marcello Gortana (05:48)
Yeah.
No, that's everything. Yeah.
Symon Oliver (05:59)
Nice.
So now that we've got the landscape, what's to look for in the CMS? I've got my list. I'm sure you got yours. And then I'm sure we can interweave what to look for, what not to look for. ⁓ I think.
Marcello Gortana (06:13)
Yeah, do we want to do what to
look for? Do we want to do more of like a breakdown of?
Like who's best suited for, mean, I guess it's sort of the same thing. ⁓ What to look for is almost like a decision tree versus just like talking about each CMS or category and giving some broad strokes in terms of like, who's the best for, what are the pros, what are the cons, why would you choose it?
Symon Oliver (06:25)
Yeah, I was thinking about that.
Totally. We can do that. Because yeah, I think it's very different depending on the business or the product that you're running. Some things might be more important to a startup and less so to an enterprise because startups are looking for, they're not looking for longevity. They want speed, flexibility, cost, right? They don't want you to over-engineer out of the gate. Whereas an enterprise, you would never put an enterprise in something like Framer because that would just be absurd.
Marcello Gortana (06:48)
Yeah, exactly.
Prioritizing it,
Yeah.
Let's start with the most simple ones. Did you include Wix and Squarespace in any of your categories there? Yeah, let's talk about those ones. Let's talk about site builders first.
Symon Oliver (07:17)
Yep, site filters.
Site builders
are an interesting area because I think that they apply a lot to the startup space and the really, really small business, but they could also apply to organizations looking to quickly deploy landing pages. And I think that's becoming less so these days with things like Webflow because it has all of that landing page architecture built in. So I would draw a boundary around Squarespace and Wix as being
Marcello Gortana (07:32)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Symon Oliver (07:52)
You're either a really small business looking to get up and running quickly and you don't want the hassle of customization or all of the pains that unlimited flexibility brings you. Go with Squarespace and Wix. Yeah.
Marcello Gortana (08:04)
and you don't have a lot to manage, a lot of content,
features. ⁓
Symon Oliver (08:09)
Yeah,
I think those two Wix is the more powerful one. ⁓ So yeah, small business or startups.
Marcello Gortana (08:16)
I would say I don't feel
like either of these are business products. I feel like they're consumer products. And I think a lot of times when businesses get on them, ⁓ especially if you're like a mid-sized business, it's usually by accident because there's just someone within the organization that's built the website on it. And there wasn't like a whole lot of foresight into the technology being used. And there's also usually a pretty quick.
runway before you're going to need to get off of it.
Symon Oliver (08:48)
Yeah, like you're saying they're going to have to switch soon.
Marcello Gortana (08:49)
That's what we see.
Yeah, like guaranteed your certain size business. So yeah, like very good for smaller organizations. It's fast, simple, low customization, ⁓ but very inflexible. if you're a small, even if you're a smaller organization with potential, really with some real big potential growth, like you're a startup or something, it's also, you know, maybe it would
Symon Oliver (09:10)
Yeah.
Marcello Gortana (09:22)
it's suitable for you in the short term, but very quickly will not become viable.
Symon Oliver (09:28)
Yeah, which I think is the point for the startup space too, is like you are looking for those short term wins. It's you're not looking at over engineering scalability.
Marcello Gortana (09:29)
So that.
Yeah, it depends on the business, right?
Yeah, depends on the business too. you're expecting significantly fast growth, you may want to think ahead and not just go for something that's going to meet your goals in the short term and then have to redo everything in a year or something.
Symon Oliver (09:55)
Yeah, if you're a startup with that level of foresight and strategy, then I would just say go to Webflow. If you are still unsure of that fort, like if you're not sure, then yeah, I'd say the short term wins with something like Squarespace and Wix are still pretty solid. But Webflow and Framer would be my standout choices for any startup because they have that speed capability and
Marcello Gortana (10:19)
Hmm, it's scale.
Symon Oliver (10:22)
Yeah, framer less so scale, webflow 100 % scalability. And that's what Squarespace and Wix lack. Like, as soon as you have to scale, you're done. Game over.
Marcello Gortana (10:23)
Yeah, true. Yeah. Yeah, that's what I was thinking.
Okay,
let's talk about traditional CMS.
Symon Oliver (10:39)
me
Yeah, what have you seen out there with our?
Marcello Gortana (10:42)
WordPress, Drupal,
Jooma, I mean, Jooma and Drupal, don't see that often. WordPress, see a lot of, I would say that like most of the time we see WordPress, it's, it's for organizations that might get off of WordPress. ⁓ I think the, nearly every time actually, but most of the instances, instances where a larger organization, ⁓ decides to stay with WordPress is because there's been a
larger mandate within the organization and IT is managing a lot of different properties and they don't want like, they don't just don't want a lot of platform diversity to manage. ⁓ I mean, WordPress started as a blog and content specific platform, right? So I think it's still great for that. SMB mid-sized content heavy, ⁓ you know, security is a risk.
Symon Oliver (11:21)
Yeah, exactly. But WordPress is.
Mm-hmm.
Marcello Gortana (11:41)
The plugin library is a pro, but I guess also a con because ⁓ that's security risk. And a lot of different people managing a lot of different pieces of technology attached to your website is a risk.
Symon Oliver (11:56)
Yeah, exactly. The plugin sprawl, we call it. Like, we were just talking about this before this call, which is third-party tools extend your... This cybersecurity domain calls it the attack surface, right? The more plugins means, like, the more third-parties you manage. If one plugin gets exploited, then that could take the rest of your system down and provide a pathway for bad actors.
Marcello Gortana (11:59)
Yeah, yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Symon Oliver (12:25)
So Plugins Brawl is, it doesn't just slow your website down. It can also be dangerous because it creates security issues. It also introduces a level of fragility with updates. So there's additional maintenance because now you're maintaining plugins. Updating plugins, which could then break the site. It's not even just the WordPress core.
Marcello Gortana (12:36)
Hmm.
Totally. Yeah, I was going to add that. ⁓ It's a platform that you'd probably need to be comfortable with ⁓ having some sort of maintenance support attached to it, whether you're doing it internally or you're doing it with an external vendor. Kind of essential.
Symon Oliver (13:02)
Yeah.
And I don't want to hate on WordPress because like some of our, some of our clients are happy to be on WordPress and we do WordPress. So I think some of the benefits of it or those small medium companies is that when you install powerful tools like Elementor, like a block level page builder tool, you start getting closer to something that Webflow, Wix, Squarespace offer in terms of imposing pages.
Marcello Gortana (13:10)
Only.
Symon Oliver (13:32)
And then you do have a rich ecosystem of plugins that you can install that extend the WordPress functionality. But the caveat is you do have to have the people to manage it. You need a retainer. Ideally, you go on something like WP Engine, which is a managed WordPress hosting provider in the cloud. And they're an interesting business model because they try to remove all the scary parts of WordPress.
In order to install a plugin on WP Engine, it's vetted by WP Engine. So that removes the complexity and fear of that. They maintain updating the WordPress core. So going with something like WP Engine is probably the safest bet for working on WordPress. Managing to build internally yourself, like some of the organizations, like mostly higher ed.
Marcello Gortana (14:20)
Mm-hmm.
Symon Oliver (14:29)
⁓ I don't know. It's a big risk. Now you need a dedicated IT team to maintain your WordPress instance. So it just complicates things,
Marcello Gortana (14:40)
And WordPress is still,
I just looked this up, WordPress is still approximately 40 plus percent of all websites on the internet.
Symon Oliver (14:49)
Wow, that's gotten significantly lower though. Wow. Wow.
Marcello Gortana (14:51)
Yeah, that's actually
as of 2025.
Symon Oliver (14:55)
That's the decline.
Marcello Gortana (14:58)
Webflow in comparison is
roughly, I don't know how, this is 2025 stats too, roughly 0.8 % of all websites globally. Still a tiny pull.
Symon Oliver (15:08)
Wow.
Good stats though. What else? What else you got there?
Marcello Gortana (15:12)
Hmm.
Symon Oliver (15:18)
Ripple.
Marcello Gortana (15:22)
for roughly 480 million websites.
Your poll is.
⁓ 0.8 % globally.
Not that popular. That's probably why we have rarely seen it. Yeah.
Symon Oliver (15:43)
Yeah. Well, no, we've been
seeing it last, like probably the last six to eight months because it's from higher ed, right? All these higher ed calls that we've been taking, even the, ⁓ the cultural sector, we just migrated a gallery from Drupal to Webflow. The reason we did that was because they were migrating. They were, they had to update their Drupal version.
Marcello Gortana (15:51)
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Yeah, yeah.
Symon Oliver (16:09)
So they went back to their previous developer and their developer was like, this is going to cost you $15,000 to update to the new version. And we can't guarantee that all of your previous functionality is going to work. So they came to us and we're like, okay, we're going to migrate Drupal to Webflow, like one-to-one. This will be the first phase. We're going to do one-to-one just so you have everything that you had before, none of the headache.
for a fraction of that. And now they're on something that they can extend. They're paying like 260 a year. So we do get a lot of requests to migrate from Drupal because people get, they get trapped into that whole idea of open source being better. Open source really just means more overhead, more maintenance, less developer pool.
Marcello Gortana (16:43)
Thanks.
Yeah.
Symon Oliver (17:04)
Really,
it's a concerning pattern that we've seen in the cultural and education sector. Drupal does exist. And when it comes to us, is, can you please migrate us off of Drupal or tell us what it would cost to upgrade?
Marcello Gortana (17:17)
Yeah.
So what are some of the pros of Drupal? Like, why is it such a good fit for government, higher ed?
Symon Oliver (17:30)
This is intentional radio silence. We don't get along. I don't know. I think it's, I honestly think they're trapped.
Marcello Gortana (17:34)
Well, it's yeah, I mean, I know it's like it's it's a it's a challenging platform,
but ⁓ But it is common in those spaces. Yeah
Symon Oliver (17:41)
literally have to chat GPT, benefits of Drupal, because I just don't know any off the top of my head.
I think it's common because people have been trapped by the idea of open source and like, I could do the research on this call for that, but that's, that's my gut feel is open source is this like North star for some people because they think it's, there's like all of these ethics bound up within it. Is this like, I'm not going to get philosophical about it.
Marcello Gortana (17:51)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Symon Oliver (18:10)
But this idea of open source is that I own it, right? Therefore it's better than being beholden to private company like Webflow. That is like, and problematic in so many, so many reasons. And then these organizations get stuck with these platforms and then end up building internal teams around it just to support it and just to plug the holes. So you end up with organizations that have up skilled their IT.
Marcello Gortana (18:10)
Yeah, yeah, no, I got it.
Mm-hmm.
Symon Oliver (18:40)
With like five to 10 people maintaining their Drupal build, was it the right decision? Who knows? It was made 15 years ago by someone who doesn't even work at the organization anymore. So I don't know. I don't know what the benefits of Drupal are. If you have Drupal now and you have the team to support Drupal, amazing. You're doing better than the majority of people out there with Drupal. If you're making a decision to go with Drupal right now in this day and age.
Marcello Gortana (18:50)
Mm-hmm.
Symon Oliver (19:09)
I would say you have better options out there.
Marcello Gortana (19:12)
Yeah. OK, let's go into the next one.
Symon Oliver (19:14)
Did you look up benefits of Drupal during my rant? I sure didn't. Give them to me.
Marcello Gortana (19:19)
I did, did. ⁓ cause I also couldn't think
of like the details around, ⁓ why government specifically in higher ed, ⁓ you find a lot of Drupal. So strong permissions, security, scalability, structured content. So like if you need really serious structure and long-term governance and seems to be, but I mean, I guess like, I mean, you couldn't really say that about WordPress, but
Symon Oliver (19:34)
Okay. Give me a break. Give me a break.
Marcello Gortana (19:46)
There's a lot of other options that you could say have strong permissions, workflows, security, scalability, structured content workflows. So I don't know. Seems weak. Yeah.
Symon Oliver (19:56)
Literally the enterprise CMS tier, like the
enterprise CMS tier has that baked in. is literally the point. So pay the licensing fees, which are some are just like 10,000 a year, 25,000 a year. Adobe experience manager is a hundred K per year, but let's spend that for the licensing, have a smaller developer team or implement Drupal and then build a five to 10.
Marcello Gortana (20:03)
Mm-hmm.
Symon Oliver (20:26)
development team, each with god knows what the salaries are, but probably more than your licensing fees. So I don't know. I think there's a lot of holes in this discussion and argument, but maybe that's a good segue to press CMSs.
Marcello Gortana (20:34)
Bye.
Is that what you want to tackle next? I think we should go to visual developers for development CMS first. Framer, then Webflow, CMS, and then go to Enterprise last.
Symon Oliver (20:45)
Bye-bye.
There's only one that I know of. ⁓
All right, you got an order you want to tackle this. development CMS.
Marcello Gortana (21:03)
Well,
think enterprise is like, it's relevant for some specific audiences and it's going to tackle things that probably the majority of people are not relevant for a lot of people, but that's just an assumption. It seems to me that like going into Framer and Webflow next makes more sense because you can think about the comparisons to Drupal and WordPress versus going straight into enterprise.
Symon Oliver (21:33)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, well, visual.
Symon Oliver (21:39)
Basically it's Figma, but instead of just sharing prototypes as screens, you're deploying your screen as an interactive website, like built with code, deployed as code. One of the reasons that people go with Framer is because it has a really rich animation system, which as you know, has been a big pain point online.
Marcello Gortana (21:54)
Mm-hmm.
Symon Oliver (22:07)
And everyone wants animations. Animations are great. They really add that level of taste and character to a web experience. But it's really good for landing pages and really small sites. So a designer doing a portfolio website or a startup doing a one-pager or a startup doing landing pages, I would say Framer is an amazing fit for that because it's likely that they're
Marcello Gortana (22:19)
Mm-hmm.
Symon Oliver (22:34)
their design team, the UIUX people, because they're capable in Figma, would be able to bridge into Framer very quickly, but also upskill quickly if they don't have Framer knowledge, but they probably do these days.
Marcello Gortana (22:44)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm. That makes sense.
Symon Oliver (22:55)
Yeah, it just lacks
like the CMS capabilities. I know they're trying to build that in right now and it's cool, but it just it's not as robust as something like Webflow. In my opinion.
Marcello Gortana (23:06)
Yeah,
that's a good segue into Webflow.
Symon Oliver (23:09)
Yeah. So yeah, Webflow definitely it's like the darling of our agency. We've been certified Webflow experts probably for the last six years, I think. And that platform has grown drastically. every quarter, they're releasing a new feature that helps agencies and clients to like push things like SEO, AEO, the ⁓
the AI equivalent of SEO or just manage their data better. So Webflow is categorizing themselves as a web experience platform. It's cool. They're trying to own a brand new category and it has the hosting, the visual page builder aspect built in as well as the content management stuff built in as well.
Marcello Gortana (23:44)
Thank you.
Symon Oliver (24:08)
So you can deploy articles, product databases, really anything with their CMS. And the cool thing about their CMS is that, let's say you want to add a new field for a product type. The marketing person can go in there and add that field in the CMS and then immediately connect it to the front end, like painlessly. So now you have marketers using
what seems like a very complicated tool, but they're just clicking through, adding fields, adding them to the front end. So the way Webflow has chosen to deal with data, I'd say is one of its standout points. But they've been going on an acquisition spree over the last two years. They acquired ⁓ Webflow Optimize, which was a tool dedicated for optimizing your Webflow.
Marcello Gortana (24:56)
Mm.
Symon Oliver (25:07)
code, front end, SEO, all of that. So they acquired that company and started baking in those features. That's why we have all of this AEO stuff now. ⁓ They acquired GSAP, which is GSAP, if you remember. They are, to this day, the animation framework that runs web. All complex animations, SVG animations, any rich animation stuff.
Marcello Gortana (25:20)
Mm-hmm.
Symon Oliver (25:36)
is GSAT. Webflow acquired them and then baked in the entire GSAT subscription and code base into Webflow.
So I don't know what they're going to acquire next, but they're growing rapidly. Their pricing makes sense. They've added an enterprise tier to their model as well. It's not cheap. think last I checked, is about a hundred K USD per year, but it's for those heavy hitting companies. Like, you know, we're talking massive multinational brands that need to manage landing pages, microsites.
Marcello Gortana (26:11)
Yeah. Yeah.
Symon Oliver (26:21)
region like regionalization, localization.
Marcello Gortana (26:22)
Yeah, makes sense.
⁓ Okay, two left. Headless CMS platforms. Contentful, sanity, strappy.
I mean, we talked a little bit about this last time when we got offline the last conversation. So multi-platform content, companies that have apps, web, SaaS. ⁓ What else could they have? What if sale, maybe? Would that work? That doesn't make sense. Yeah, yeah. So basically, yeah, just pushing content to multiple platforms.
Symon Oliver (26:50)
Yeah, point of sale. I mean, it's more of an integration, I'd say.
Yeah, exactly. Like you could have three different front ends for three different countries, but they all have the same data source. It's like your entire content store is in a structured backend delivered through APIs. So, you know, it's like choose your own front end kind of thing with some of them.
Marcello Gortana (27:14)
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, so that's the minimum requirement,
basically, if someone's curious about Headless. It just doesn't even make sense for you unless you're operating that kind of ecosystem.
Symon Oliver (27:30)
Yeah, exactly. A massive multinational product catalog would be an excellent use case for endless CMS. A microsite? Definitely not. You're going to be going through infinite headaches and 10x the development costs and maintenance.
Marcello Gortana (27:39)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay, let's do the last one, Enterprise and DXP. Together.
Symon Oliver (27:58)
All
right, Enterprise. Yeah, so we already mentioned them a bit, like Sitecore, Sitefinity, AEM, Adobe Experience Manager, they're really good just for, I'd say, their governance and workflows. They've got a lot of these content approval workflows built in, very strict governance. So if you have one team managing the product catalog, for example, you can restrict them to just that.
Marcello Gortana (28:12)
Mm-hmm.
Symon Oliver (28:27)
but then you can get really granular, what are you going to allow someone to update? Something like pricing? Well, maybe that's just one person that can do pricing. And then they do the pricing and it still needs to go up the chain for approvals. So the workflows can be more customized and dialed in. And this is really important for governments. Yeah. And that's why I think, ⁓ you know,
Marcello Gortana (28:35)
Yeah.
and decision making can be centralized.
Symon Oliver (28:54)
Part of the Ontario government is using Adobe Experience Manager because deploying that content requires these strict governance and workflows. All of these things, all of it is very, very expensive.
Marcello Gortana (28:57)
Mm.
Yeah, also very expensive, all of us.
Which obviously makes
sense because it scales with complexity and with the size of the organizations that they're and built for. ⁓
Symon Oliver (29:12)
Yeah.
I think there's a cost benefit to like, like we were saying with the Drupal builds, maybe you go and enterprise CMS because it's $10,000 a month licensing, but your development team, maybe you only need like three to five people. Whereas you go with Drupal and you try to do the same thing with it. Maybe you need five to 10 people maintaining it and maintaining it for all the wrong reasons.
Marcello Gortana (29:34)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, I think it's important to add that we are vastly simplifying everything here. And ⁓ that's a great comment, because a big part of what we do is basically come in as part of the technology procurement part of this and to help make those business decisions based on the cost of ownership. So, you know, comparing your running costs, licensing costs, all of these things before making any recommendations is
more complex than just saying this is the best fit for you because of the features. It's not only about features and ability. It's also about cost, how much it's going to cost you, and how much it's actually potentially going to save you. So there's usually a best fit, not an exact fit. You're always kind of looking for what is the best fit.
Symon Oliver (30:18)
and
Yeah, totally. And that's why we call ourselves technology agnostic because when you come in, we look at your problem, we frame the problem around your marketing, your operations, people using these tools and the intent of the project. And then we help you choose that best fit rather than just saying, well, we're a WordPress shop, so let's build WordPress only. And there are jobs like that. No, it doesn't. There's niche agencies like that, but we've
Marcello Gortana (30:52)
Mm-hmm.
Yes. Yeah, it doesn't work like that.
Symon Oliver (31:03)
explicitly decided not to niche ourselves in a particular type of technology.
Marcello Gortana (31:09)
Yes, yeah, because it's all more complicated than just going in and recommending something without understanding the business case behind it. Business case, the usability case, all of it. All right.
Symon Oliver (31:12)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah,
I'd say like the editor experience is one of the biggest things that we talk about in those early days. Like what is it going to be like for your marketing team to be editing and maintaining the content? Because if it's, if it's exhausting or if you have to contact a developer to do it, then it's not checking the right boxes. There might be some instances like a headless where you do need to involve a developer. It's a conscious effort.
Marcello Gortana (31:24)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Symon Oliver (31:50)
through defining that scope and figuring out where the cost benefit is.
Marcello Gortana (31:56)
Makes sense. That's a good place to call it. It's a bit of a longer one, but ⁓ right. I thought we talked about it. Yeah, let's do it. ⁓ OK. Perfect. OK, well, maybe we'll save that.
Symon Oliver (32:01)
Nice, well we didn't cover TXPs.
Did you want to do DXPs? Because I said I don't know anything about them.
⁓ Yeah, let's save it for
a, we'll do a redux when we learn about what a DXP is.
Marcello Gortana (32:19)
Yeah, totally. All right, cool. Yeah. All right.
Symon Oliver (32:22)
Awesome. All right. Take it easy.
Bye.